Mods/set perks suggestion!

Right now having a 11x items with 2x or 3x same mod, ain’t big deal for stat points.
After doing some maths, having a 11x set with 2x mod or even 3x mod (str, int, sta, mdef, pdef) ain’t worth.
They dont scale with training and the bonus getting from them is really small.
What I suggest is a perk system.

Basically :
Mods
10x str > 10% str increase
10x int > 10% int increase
10x pdef > 10% pdef increase
10x mdef > 10% mdef increase
10x sta > 10% sta increase

20x str > 15% increase
20x int > 15%
20x pdef > 15%
20x mdef > 15%
20x sta> 15%

30x > 20% increase
40x > 30% increase

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Do you know that the stats from equipment does not apply into stat training right?

Btw, talking about the equipment mods, when we reach a good balance based on class stat modifiers/equipment/skills we should also talk about modifiers from equipment because some of them as you say are useless but right now I think it’s not the priority (but should be soon).

I’m against having equipment with same stat modifiers, so for me It would be impossible to have a 3x Exp equipment, should not be repeatable, but it’s too late. Makes the game too flat, is everything about “Looking for 2x/3x XXX equipment”

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We used to have it like that and it ended up on total mayhem. We couldnt even balance a level 10 fight against monsters because some people could have 220% more STR than others.

What happened was that when we introduced training stats became inflated, sure +20STR is nothing now, but it used to be a lot back then. Over time people rebirth more and more making mods look like they are not worth it.

Yet another consequence of not having caps. I sense a huge revamp will have to be introduced

2 Likes

Negative stats quests or items would help balance this and could satisfy exp bonus requests (also in a balanced manner). Examples:

  • Cursed item - negative 50 all stats +25% XP (adjustable of course)
  • Cursed quest - negative 50 all stats and bigger reward than normal, but more flexible as risk and reward can scale or be selectable by player.
  • Combination of both, cursed item quest, using item to apply the stat debuff.

The key to making this work is a genuinely painful debuff that offsets the bonus.

A side thought to prevent exploiting, track damage instead of kills.

Stats inflate with training and RB yes. No cap currently yes. A complete revamp… not exactly the answer, especially if you want to ever release the game and keep players at the same time.
Now in a sense you have the cap of… eventually it takes so long to RB its not worth the time… but that’s still a relatively high rb lvl. Same for stats training. And then lets add swapping classes which makes the problem worse believe it or not. Instead of devoting time to a class and if you want to play a different one you have to re-farm stats and rb, you can just swap, sell gear to get new class gear, done. In a way you built QOL aspects that are common in small non-competitive games and put them into a retro mmo pvp style game… where those aspects feed off each other in making the problem worse not better (at least with the way the game is currently coded) Its also a big part (along with current skills) as to why there is a pretty good imbalance between classes atm.

Introduce a cap now and it would have to be higher than what someone currently stands at… if you make it lower then they wasted time to have stats lowered. However if the cap isn’t high enough beyond the current top people then you also take away there reason to play.

I feel the biggest problem with the above mention of stats/gear/no cap etc… is more the way the current stats are designed to operate and the caps on some of the stats. Lets look at it like this… lets say a year from now everyone farms up to 150-200% stats… we all have max dodge/crit from agi/dex and the rest into dmg/def w/e… now while I could argue max crit comes at the cost of points in str for dmg… theres now way (even with gear) people should have 90% dodge… let alone 90% dodge and 5-10k hp or more? You can see where stats are highly devalued, and this is also why everyone pretty much uses the same kit for the most part, and the reason why everyone looks for the same 2/3x gear.

If you rework the stats, set a lower cap on dodge (or just remove it from gear so it has to be obtained through stats alone, which really makes you choose between dodge or def/mdef) and rework how stats work in combat in a scaling fashion, you would have much better luck at balance and stat value with less work than a complete revamp.

2 Likes

Well done, you make a really good observations there.

Later on we can start to enumerate the problems but at least some of them:

  • We agree in a cap, rebirth, stat training should have a cap for sure, because if not it’s almost impossible to have balance. But if you make higher than some people already has you must push RB limit to 25 and stat training to 1000.

  • I strongly agree about people that change class like nothing is happening, is really boring to see people that was hunter and then warrior or were paladin and then wizzard, right now there is almost any paladin out there(because it sucks hard) and lot of hunters went for warrior because of super PvP OP.

  • The modifiers from items should be revamped, for sure, but what are we going to do with people that already has 3x equipment? It’s really hard to achieve a good balance in there so almost every modifier is useful for at least 1 or 2 build/classes.

  • We need a class balance for sure, some stat modifiers does not make sense, we must revamp also every equipment stat(def,mdef,pdmg,mdmg,etc)

  • Not only the equipment is almost the same in every class so no alternatives, but also that every class is almost based on the same stats. If we make a really good balance every class should has at least 2 builds like for example:

Hunter: A glass cannon(super weak but super strong) you could kill easy and be killed easy, or something with more dodge/life/etc.

Wizzard: Super DPS wizzard but also some balanced between them like less damage and better defense/life.

Warrior: Same, you can go Super DPS or something in the middle.

Pal: Full support or “battle paladin”.

  • Skill damage rework

It’s really difficult to achieve a good balance, lot of work to do and lot of things to have in mind. But for simplify things probably the best would be to make small iterations like starting first for reviewing the stat modifiers for every class, then when is polished moving on to skills, then equipment, then modifiers, etc… If you go with all revamped in one shot it will probably be impossible.

In that balance it also a must to try to achieve PvP interesting so the matches/duels will at least be between 15s to 1 minute max, because right now it’s pew pew die. Maybe there you should apply to damage and other areas some penality in order to have longer battles.

In addition I think that every class should have a meta like:
Wizard should kill really easy a warrior
Warrior should kill really easy a hunter
Hunter should kill really easy a wizard
And paladin should be in between all of them, like a support class(a class to be difficult to kill but also a class that would be difficult if you use it to kill others, because in the end, is a support class).

So PvP and GvG will got interesting too.

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hindsight… honestly reworking class balance and removing class swap would solve some of these problems too. make the classes distinct with skills that emphasize the class and its role, like hunter massive and fast single target dmg , mage mid range powerhouse aoe, warrior mid tank in your face dmg dealer, pally mega tank low dmg support etc etc. Add some passives to allow a custom feel, like something to make hunters incredibly weak multi shot deal more dmg, or hit more than 5 targets (when everyone else has no limit)… mage passive to increase well anything from cast speed/slight range increase etc, you get the idea. Some defense/attack/mechanic passives, but like skills you cant have em all… do you go all dmg hunter, or maybe you want a more defensive dodge hunter. Do you want a faster move higher def warrior, or if I catch you your done warrior. Things that give a uniqueness to the build will help diversify and add value to different stats even without cap (if you just rework the stat scalings) and with no class swap you again add value to the time put in to that specific character.

2 Likes

I agree with most of these as well. But I still feel we could achieve it all without introducing a cap to rb/stat (other than making stat cap at 300% for example) buy changing statistical caps like dodge to something lower than 90% (which is crazy high) and introduce a scaled application to stats like dmg/def/mdef. Again crit 100% I feel is ok when applied to what im about to suggest…

Right now its possible (not likely cause of how people build… but possible to have 0% dmg taken. Absorbed. Shouldn’t happen in a pvp game… you already have dodge to account for a chance at that. But I’ve tested the numbers rather extensively and found the scaling system is too linear and play off each other (dmg vs def that is). Instead… if def/mdef were coded different (right now it almost looks static to a point with a insanely small scale way later) to something like DmgReduction% = def/mdef / (def/mdef+x) (not these exact numbers but you get the idea) one would need 1000 def or mdef to receive a full 100% dmg reduction right? So you find a sweet spot, where with a calculation like this a warrior could avg 75% DMR (dmg reduction) a pally 85% hunter 50% mage 35% something like this. Then find the sweet spot for phys and magic individually, ie hunter 50% both, mage 35% phys but say 60% magic dmg avg (just a example) you now have some avg’s… then you account for different builds where one lets say pally… Min/max that def/mdef out and his 85% avg could now be 90% (never allowing 100% and balancing it in accordance to that classes dmg output (paly low dmg… so high tank to last long enough to get dmg out… mage high dmg and aoe… lower def but higher mdef warrior will beat up close… loose at range, hunter has advantage (but not crazy cause mage have mana shield… again skill reworks needed for all) but again you get the idea.

A scaling attk/def system with diminishing returns like above would make it so yes… time spent grinding = power… but even new people can roll in a gvg fight and be relevant, not just dodge/dodge/low dmg that maybe tickled his pet/dodge etc etc.

You could even say if you wanted a hard cap on training at 1000(300% max) and soft cap on rb… lets just throw out 30, and after 30 you can still rb but scale it to be a truly dedicated achievement… you always need something to work for but doesn’t mean it shouldn’t get near daunting to push for that little more advantage ^.^

Stats on equips (exp/item/gold aside cause those are on drop only you cant reroll to get em)(and dodge cause I still think its crazy to allow 90% dodge cap on any game that’s not single player and pretending to be a god) stats I think instead of adding work to the numerous issues (which are far more important) leave the stats on equips as is… remove dodge period… and utilize the crafting system that is constantly mentioned as coming… to be the way fix that problem. Could be something as simple as equips have stat caps, crafting to strengthen increases the cap (like how jewels increase base stats) or make crafting super tedious but rewarding… allowing for class set gear, set bonus, but still need to craft a ton of them (just like farming for drops) if you want those specific mods on the individual pieces (set bonus not changeable)

There’s a lot going on here, some good, some is based on bad info (I think). Unfortunately, it’s hard to follow.

Try structuring your ideas in a more readable format (see Kev’s post). He sections out his ideas, makes a statement in this first sentence, then follows it up with explanation or example.

Sorry about going all grammar teacher on you (I promise I’m not), but it’ll help others read your ideas instead of glazing over and skipping.

Here is some analysis that I’ve done related to how stats/equipment relations should be achieved:

STR/PDMG : War > Hun > Pal > Wiz
INT/MDMG : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
STA / HP : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz (Not happening now)
WIS / MP : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
AGI / DODGE : Hun > Pal > Wiz > War
DEX / CRIT : Hun > Wiz > War > Pal
PDEF : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz
MDEF : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War (Not happening now)
HP Regen : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz (Not happening now)
MP Regen : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War (Not happening now)
HP / Lvl : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz (Not happening now)
MP / Lvl : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War (Not happening now)
Walk Speed : Hun > Wiz > Pal > War
Attack Speed : Hun > Pal > War > Wiz (I think it doesn’t happen right now)

Some of these relations are not happening, and we have some sort of things in skills that doesn’t make sense, for example:
See [Wiki] Classes & Stats for actual details but:

  • Hunter’s ritual should only apply to your own character not to the party.
  • Every banner cast time should be drastically reduced. Rituals and charge are almost casted instantly and speed buff banner takes an eternity.
  • Wizard has more damage in their weapons than a warrior, should have the same balance, one PDMG other MDMG
  • Hp and mp regen is the same for every class (does not make sense)
  • INT dmg from pal should be increased a bit
  • HP per STA of pal should be increased a bit
  • CRIT per dex should be nerfed a bit in wiz and war and increased in pal
  • PDEF per point of hunter should be buffed
  • Wizz has more MDEF per point than WAR PDEF per point, should mantain same ratio.
  • War MDEF should be nerfed a lot, HUN MDEF should be nerfed a bit.
  • MP and HP per lvl does not have the same ratio
  • War walk speed should be nerfed a bit
  • Dodge chance should be capped to 75% or 50%, 90% is weird.
  • Wizz % extra damage from concentration should be nerfed a bit
  • Some wizz skills has huge damage modifiers I don’t know if that’s right
  • Every class has the samebasic attack speed(at least viewing the code, didn’t test it, but it’s also wrong

And there is more to discuss but I would stop here. If you see my relationships you clearly see that every class would have a meta.

If you want more details here are some numbers, it’s not finished but shows the idea.

STR:		War > Hun > Pal > Wiz
Wiz: 1
War: 3		
Hun: 2.85
Pal: 1

INT:		Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
Wiz: 3
War: 1
Hun: 1
Pal: 2.75	Buffed from 2.7

STA:		War > Pal > Hun > Wiz
Wiz: 10
War: 15
Hun: 12
Pal: 13	Buffed from 12

WIS:		Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
Wiz: 6		Buffed from 5
War: 1	
Hun: 3
Pal: 4

AGI:		Hun > Pal > Wiz > War
Wiz: 0.11
War: 0.10
Hun: 0.16
Pal: 0.13

DEX:		Hun > Wiz > War > Pal
Wiz: 0.09	Nerfed from 0.10
War: 0.07	Nerfed from 0.08
Hun: 0.12
Pal: 0.06	Buffed from 0.05

PDEF:		War > Pal > Hun > Wiz
Wiz: 2		
War: 3.8	
Hun: 2.75	Nerfed from 3
Pal: 3.5		

MDEF:		Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
Wiz: 3.8	Nerfed from 4
War: 2		Nerfed from 2.5
Hun: 2.75	Nerfed from 3
Pal: 3.5	


HP Regen:	War > Pal > Hun > Wiz
Wiz: 0.25	Nerfed from 0.5	
War: 0.75	Buffed from 0.5	
Hun: 0.50	
Pal: 0.70	Buffed from 0.5	

MP Regen:	Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
Wiz: 0.75	Buffed from 0.5	
War: 0.25	Nerfed from 0.5		
Hun: 0.50	
Pal: 0.70	Buffed from 0.5		

HP / Lvl:	War > Pal > Hun > Wiz
Wiz: 3		
War: 5		
Hun: 3.5	Nerfed from 4
Pal: 4		Buffed from 3.5	

MP / Lvl:	Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
Wiz: 5		Buffed from 3	
War: 3		Buffed from 1		
Hun: 3.5	Buffed from 2
Pal: 4		Buffed from 3

Walk Speed:	Hun > Wiz > Pal > War
Wiz: 1.15		
War: 1		Nerfed from 1.1		
Hun: 1.2	
Pal: 1.1		

Then you should apply same logic to equipment(def mdef health dmg mp hp etc added from it) and then you should tweak skills and you are almost there (Skills damage modifier should have same ratio as INT/STR modifiers for each class) right now a Wizz has multiplier of 3 while other classes have almost half of that multiplier, also War has super OP buffs super OP defense, hp, and attack, etc.

BTW the idea of having “passive skills” is not bad.

Recipes for a good balance: Participation of the community, lot lof logic, LOT of maths and simulations, and LOT of testing. Doing small iterations as I said, first stats modifiers, later on equipment, later on skills, etc.
We can make a great job here.

Thanks @Ezra and @Gaby because they helped me a lot with the relations and numbers

3 Likes

Leave Hunter’s ritual alone, might not make sense balance wise, but it makes hunter more party friendly (hunters will be more efficient solo than in a party and will choose not to)

Jorob, that’s not true.

First of first with the balance hunter will not be as fast as now, also steady shot is bugged/broken right now(0.9 cooldown) the fastests skill that a hunter would have is snipe with 1.5 cooldown. Thats the reason why hunters kills so fasts besides the crit chance.

Second, you need a party for doinng lanes in ice, also in party you win more exp than soloing.

Third, you wanna speed buff? get a paladin with you. You cannot have best of all worlds in one class(War right now have best buffs, best life, great aoe etc) (Hunter kills super fast, has super crit dodge, good aoe etc) (Wizz has best AOE, super high dmg output, mana shield, etc). Pal sucks, pal needs a meaning, with a balance the meaning will be there, also with new maps/bosses super hard pal should be a must(in DS should be a must too to reach highest lvls in there).

I know you are hunter, and I play as a hunter, but be neutral.

Btw, the ritual thing is a super minor thing compared to the other things we’re discussing here. Ezra is a wizzard and almost agree with all nerfs we’ve done to the wizz for example.

As always there are just suggestions, Alk always have the last word.


Going back to stat straining thing with Ezra we thinked in a few scenarios and ideas like:

  • Making exponential with a cap for example lvl 1000 stat will be 150-200% from there you scale it exponentially until to lvl 1.

  • Another option is making 1 extra stat point every 10 lvls so you can train all stats because it will not be based in Base stat or Rebirth stat.

  • Instead of giving % stat, could work as training points.
    Make soft caps like
    Lvl 0-15, 0.25lp/lvl
    Lvl 15-50, 0.5lp/lvl
    Lvl 50-200, 0.75lp/lvl
    Lvl 200-500, 1lp/lvl
    Or something like that (Notice how the lvls are same as upgrade jewels from items xD)
    Also give every1 a train stat reset option (one time), so they dont lose the train exp they farmed.

Maybe you earn more in a party. Ice lanes is probably the only place I can earn more exp in a group rather than solo (and not as much as you think). When I RB, I switch to poison arrow and snipe for the mana issues, steady shot is marginally better.

Even with hunters ritual as a group buff, very few people keep up with me. I often go backwards to catch group members with ritual, just so they aren’t out of range for xp. I group because it’s friendly and doesn’t make sense to fight over mobs, not because it’s more efficient than solo.

If we are talking restructuring PvE mobs as well this is a different story. Paladin wouldn’t be underpowered in PvE if the some of the environment demanded grouping.

It’s more of a case of game environment not suiting the class than an imbalance. Ever try PvP against a comparable paladin? It’s downright annoying, but the environment where paladin shines is DS.

@kevhemingway maybe you should make a topic about it but lets finish everything xd

to be fair steady shot is bugged in more than just cd/cast time… but the dmg as well… its a description makes it sound like its a long cast… 2 secs lets and heavy dmg say 2.5/3x base… instead its the fastest cast/cd but also the lowest dmg of hunter skills

And hunter aoe is not good… its weakest of all classes. Multi only hits 5 targets for slightly more than base… the dmg part I agree with but only 5 is a huge limit in comparison to now limit on others. Booby trap is good dmg but slow cause its DoT.

In comparison… warrior/paly have low cd/cast but low dmg/range aoe, no limit
Mage has high cd/cast but high range/dmg aoe, no limit
Hunter has medium cast/cd with basically normal dmg only 5 target, or unlimited targed with DoT that still takes longer than a war/pally to kill (sry but hunter aoe is trash) not that im complaining, hunter should realistically have crap aoe but be the highest single target dmg there is, but its definitely not in the realm of good in comparison

I like the work… I just feel mage still shouldn’t have higher mdef over pally. Pally in every sense is the magic tanker.

Regardless though, for the topic of thread, I still feel that a solid re-balance of all classes, and balance/reworking of skills is needed way before we discuss gear mods/set and such. Need to fix the root of the problem before other changes, or you just make new problems and more things to fix down the road. Balance is the hardest most tedious aspect of any mmo period… but its also the downright most important aspect to have a successful mmo!

And the 3 main things that need to be done is:

  • rebalance stats per class
  • rework and rebalance skills (so many skills are just worthless and not used… like hunter traps)
  • and lastly reworking how the stats work and relate to secondary effects like dodge (im never gonna stop bringing up 90% dodge being the stupidest cap to have… lol) but also as i mentioned previously how dmg reduction works with def/mdef in relation to enemies dmg output