How would you balance the game?

Here is some analysis that we’ve done related to how stats/equipment relations should be achieved:

STR/PDMG : War > Hun > Pal > Wiz
INT/MDMG : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
STA / HP : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz (Not happening now)
WIS / MP : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
AGI / DODGE : Hun > Pal > Wiz > War
DEX / CRIT : Hun > Wiz > War > Pal
PDEF : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz
MDEF : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War (Not happening now)
HP Regen : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz (Not happening now)
MP Regen : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War (Not happening now)
HP / Lvl : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz (Not happening now)
MP / Lvl : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War (Not happening now)
Walk Speed : Hun > Wiz > Pal > War
Attack Speed : Hun > Pal > War > Wiz (I think it doesn’t happen right now)

Some of these relations are not happening, and we have some sort of things in skills that doesn’t make sense, for example:
See [Wiki] Classes & Stats for actual details but:

  • Hunter’s ritual should only apply to your own character not to the party.
  • Every banner cast time should be drastically reduced. Rituals and charge are almost casted instantly and speed buff banner takes an eternity.
  • Wizard has more damage in their weapons than a warrior, should have the same balance, one PDMG other MDMG
  • Hp and mp regen is the same for every class (does not make sense)
  • INT dmg from pal should be increased a bit
  • HP per STA of pal should be increased a bit
  • CRIT per dex should be nerfed a bit in wiz and war and increased in pal
  • PDEF per point of hunter should be buffed
  • Wizz has more MDEF per point than WAR PDEF per point, should mantain same ratio.
  • War MDEF should be nerfed a lot, HUN MDEF should be nerfed a bit.
  • MP and HP per lvl does not have the same ratio
  • War walk speed should be nerfed a bit
  • Dodge chance should be capped to 75% or 50%, 90% is weird.
  • Wizz % extra damage from concentration should be nerfed a bit
  • Some wizz skills has huge damage modifiers I don’t know if that’s right
  • Every class has the samebasic attack speed(at least viewing the code, didn’t test it, but it’s also wrong

And there is more to discuss but I would stop here. If you see my relationships you clearly see that every class would have a meta.

If you want more details here are some numbers, it’s not finished but shows the idea.

STR:		War > Hun > Pal > Wiz
Wiz: 1
War: 3		
Hun: 2.85
Pal: 1

INT:		Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
Wiz: 3
War: 1
Hun: 1
Pal: 2.75	Buffed from 2.7

STA:		War > Pal > Hun > Wiz
Wiz: 10
War: 15
Hun: 12
Pal: 13	Buffed from 12

WIS:		Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
Wiz: 6		Buffed from 5
War: 1	
Hun: 3
Pal: 4

AGI:		Hun > Pal > Wiz > War
Wiz: 0.11
War: 0.10
Hun: 0.16
Pal: 0.13

DEX:		Hun > Wiz > War > Pal
Wiz: 0.09	Nerfed from 0.10
War: 0.07	Nerfed from 0.08
Hun: 0.12
Pal: 0.06	Buffed from 0.05

PDEF:		War > Pal > Hun > Wiz
Wiz: 2		
War: 3.8	
Hun: 2.75	Nerfed from 3
Pal: 3.5		

MDEF:		Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
Wiz: 3.8	Nerfed from 4
War: 2		Nerfed from 2.5
Hun: 2.75	Nerfed from 3
Pal: 3.5	


HP Regen:	War > Pal > Hun > Wiz
Wiz: 0.25	Nerfed from 0.5	
War: 0.75	Buffed from 0.5	
Hun: 0.50	
Pal: 0.70	Buffed from 0.5	

MP Regen:	Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
Wiz: 0.75	Buffed from 0.5	
War: 0.25	Nerfed from 0.5		
Hun: 0.50	
Pal: 0.70	Buffed from 0.5		

HP / Lvl:	War > Pal > Hun > Wiz
Wiz: 3		
War: 5		
Hun: 3.5	Nerfed from 4
Pal: 4		Buffed from 3.5	

MP / Lvl:	Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
Wiz: 5		Buffed from 3	
War: 3		Buffed from 1		
Hun: 3.5	Buffed from 2
Pal: 4		Buffed from 3

Walk Speed:	Hun > Wiz > Pal > War
Wiz: 1.15		
War: 1		Nerfed from 1.1		
Hun: 1.2	
Pal: 1.1		

Then you should apply same logic to equipment(def mdef health dmg mp hp etc added from it) and then you should tweak skills and you are almost there (Skills damage modifier should have same ratio as INT/STR modifiers for each class) right now a Wizz has multiplier of 3 while other classes have almost half of that multiplier, also War has super OP buffs super OP defense, hp, and attack, etc.

BTW the idea of having “passive skills” is not bad.

Recipes for a good balance: Participation of the community, lot lof logic, LOT of maths and simulations, and LOT of testing. Doing small iterations as I said, first stats modifiers, later on equipment, later on skills, etc.
We can make a great job here.

Thanks to @kevhemingway and @Ezra , we worked on this together but we aren’t done. Every suggestion and help are good to make a new balance and a better one. I am paladin, kev is hunter and Ezra is wizard(he was a strong warrior) so I think we did a fair balance :slight_smile:

1 Like

I’ll do my comments about my point of view. For sure my opinions here are based on me playing hunter and they are possibly leaning to its benefict, even when i dont want intencionaly (sometimes i do), but i hope it help.

  • STR/PDMG : War > Hun > Pal > Wiz

I dont agree with Warrior having more STR than Hunter. Hunter (and mage) are what we call regurlarly as glass cannons. Hunter sure isnt right now.

A lot of things make this happen, starting from base stats, going with RB, training and skills.

That said, war and hunter str should be at least the same if you want to start a balance.

Keep in mind warrior also have the biggest HP and Pdef so, stat wise he is a beast and lose only in stats that really dont matter to him.

Before anyone saying “if you increase hunter he will be OP in PVE (or PVP)”, sure, put hunter in a line killing one mob by one and he should be the ultimate weapon on that. Now get a good hunter with high RB, training and gear and join DS alone, you will die in wave 1. This is supposed to be like this!!! So if hunter become a beast in killing 1 by 1, he should be like this.


  • INT/MDMG : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War
  • STA / HP : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz (Not happening now)
  • WIS / MP : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War

Nothing to point for those, they should be like this, i think.


  • AGI / DODGE : Hun > Pal > Wiz > War

Imo Wiz should have more dodge than Pal.


  • DEX / CRIT : Hun > Wiz > War > Pal
  • PDEF : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz

Those two seems ok


  • MDEF : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War (Not happening now)

I surely dont agree with this. Pal should be the major Mdef. This doenst mean mages need to have low mdef at all, but Pal should be the command position in that matter imo.


  • HP Regen : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz (Not happening now)
  • MP Regen : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War (Not happening now)

Pal should have the same HP/MP regen as warrior and wiz. he is the support that should do nothing in combat by its own, but should never fall either…


  • HP / Lvl : War > Pal > Hun > Wiz (Not happening now)
  • MP / Lvl : Wiz > Pal > Hun > War (Not happening now)

Nothing to say about those.


  • Walk Speed : Hun > Wiz > Pal > War

I kinda of agree with that, but i think i would try to balance other things first before changing move speed the classes.
I also dont like the mov speed cap and everyone can get to the cap easily. is the same old story “if everyone is special, no one is special”. If everyone is at max easily, whats the point?


  • Attack Speed : Hun > Pal > War > Wiz (I think it doesn’t happen right now)

I think they already will make it like this, but it isnt yet.


Hunter’s ritual should only apply to your own character not to the party.

Agree. Hunter is a individual selfish class =P

Every banner cast time should be drastically reduced. Rituals and charge are almost casted

Agree

Wizard has more damage in their weapons than a warrior, should have the same balance, one PDMG other MDMG

I agree that this matter need some attention, but possible not the way gaby mention it. Wizard have the biggest dmg on weapon alone and his secondary item is defensive, like warrior.

i dont think warrior should have the same dmg on weapon as wizard at all.

take a look at the dmgs:

Sword - 486
Bow - 460 (+74 from quiver - 2,26 crit chance) 534 dmg.
Hammer - 432
Staff - 540

My problem here is with hunter. Hunter need two itens to get almost the same dmg as mage to get a incredible low crit rate benefit while pala and warrior get a lot of defense from shield, mage also get some defense and mana from book.

Not only that, you really see the problem when you start to upgrade your itens. the first thing every player want is to have its weapon at 500 (old 16), this means the weapon dmg commonly found in game is:

Sword - 972
Bow - 920 - not considereing quiver at all
Hammer - 864
Staff - 1.080

You can easily see the problem. In the old system was really difficult, not to say near impossible, to make a 16 item.

In the new system sure is possible, but need a ton of time. This means Hunter will need to make two 500 itens (bow and quiver) to compete in dmg with other classes for no benefit, cause the crit rate given is terribly low.

That said, what happen is that when people do the weapon and go for the 2nd key item, like a defensive one, hunter still need to work on dmg or be outclassed to work on his defense or anything else useful.

Btw, hunter crit dmg is not anything special so, would be better to put on quiver an OK crit dmg modifier than this ridiculously low crit rate.


Hp and mp regen is the same for every class (does not make sense)

agree.

INT dmg from pal should be increased a bit

not sure about that.

HP per STA of pal should be increased a bit

possibly yes.

CRIT per dex should be nerfed a bit in wiz and war and increased in pal

not sure about nerf, but i wouldnt increase on pal either.

PDEF per point of hunter should be buffed

Im not sure on that, hunter should die if he is caught.

This is what make me mad, people dont want hunter with dmg, but want them to tank… hunter dont tank, hunter dodge sometimes, if not, they die.

Wizz has more MDEF per point than WAR PDEF per point, should mantain same ratio.

Why? I dont agree that it should be the same. the classes are different. why should warrior tank pdef the same as mages tank mdef?

War MDEF should be nerfed a lot, HUN MDEF should be nerfed a bit.

I cant say about warrior, but nerf hunter MDEF??? lol, hunter die to ranged mobs… any so so wizard is one shot killing hunter with meteor, burn, hit + ice spear…

This is a NO GO.

MP and HP per lvl does not have the same ratio

Agree.

War walk speed should be nerfed a bit

For now i would try to balance all the other things before messing with move speed, but i do agree warrior have all sort of utilities on his skills.

Dodge chance should be capped to 75% or 50%, 90% is weird.

Classes should have different caps for this, but i agree all of them should be reduced, cause end game pvp is get dodge tank equip (for all classes) and kill the oponent with burn (mage) and bleed (warrior), this sux.

Wizz % extra damage from concentration should be nerfed a bit

Wiz probably need a bit of nerf on almost all skills, specially the AOE ones. same applies to warrior.

Some wizz skills has huge damage modifiers I don’t know if that’s right

Repeating, Wiz probably need a bit of nerf on almost all skills, specially the AOE ones. same applies to warrior.


"Skills damage modifier should have same ratio as INT/STR modifiers for each class"

I dont agree with that.

The stat dmg already reflect on skill dmg so, if you build the exact same skill and put it avaible to all classes, they will do diferent dmg cause the stats buff them. Things arent that easy.

If you just use the same ratio on skill based on the class stats, things scale and get broken.


What i want to add to all this that gaby didnt mention it is:

1- the AOE skills of mage and warrior obliterate things. Biggest concern to meteor rain. mage quick cast meteor rain the role screen and kill all the things, including players if he want.

2 - warrior tank, oh, he tank. more than he should tank -.- he is immortal in front of a hunter

3 - “hunter dont need dmg buff, he is dps cause the skills are fast cast and he will do dmg over time” : THIS IS A MYTH. you can cast fast, but if the skill have a high CD, dont matter, you will use the skill only once anyway. “but you use steady shot every second”. sure, i use it, it do 30 dmg on a warrior and about 500 on a mage at the same power lvl that possibly have like 3k HP and one shoot kill you before you can cast the first steady shoot (meteor role screen with quick cast)

dont forget about the mana, it end quikly.

btw, i did some dmg test months ago, warrior is the DPS and both warrior and mage function like a true glass cannon when you talk about dmg, but warrior is also incredible tank. Warrior should die to mages like you can break a glass.

4 - acrobatics of hunter should work against skills too… is the only way that he can try to fight back.

5 - the only way hunter survive is cause he kill first, keep that in mind. right now hunter dont have the the dmg to survive, but he sure is squish (PVP wise).

6 - Hunter still is messed up with skill that are primary and sould be secondary.

I just say the warrior shouldn’t nerfed it because nobody is going to use it in the future since they are going down MDEF DEF STR and the warrior is melee they don’t have any distance skills so that’s why a resistance tank is a warrior

and the magician has too much damage and a lot of defense he is a literal tank in resistance and damage

@Mozine_Bardok yeah you are almost right in every case but our point here was to push a bit the idea of a balance…
Personally i forgot about hunter quiver and yeah he have almost same damage as a wizard.
Pdef buff on hunter I disagree with this too.
A bit I think pal should be major mdef…
We all know training mdef is usless xd(I wasted time to train until lvl 100 and i dont feel something, every stat is the better at lvl 600+ xd)
When we say pal should have more dodge than wiz…well we need to think more, paladin have pdef and mdef buffs but wizard have huge mana and mana shield.

About hunter needs to make two items +500 yeah its right but he is like the best pve class and you AA+Steady and hunter rituals

But trust me I am paladin, I don’t even have a +50 hammer and paladin is so weak at my lvl with 6rbs and almost lvl 200 int…when I got first +13(old system) things really changed to good.
But now you wait 10 seconds to pick up a jewel if you didnt killed the monster and it is pretty impossible when you re in an ice party, ds too.
And again at my lvl with not even +50 hammer is hard to farm alone and spend all my money on jewels. Almost every hunter have over 20kk…

Nothing to say anymore I made this topic to talk about everyone opinion

PS: on numbers we decided to buff paladin from 2.7 magic damage to 2.75 and he is still the lowest
I dont think it is really much but this will increase a bit his weapon too… maybe atleast he could reach 450 mdmg and maybe (+500) reach 900.

about the weapons value, the values i put above are the old +12, not 16 like i said. im lazy now and dont want to look for the numbers, but they scale the same way in all classes.

I do agree paladin have a hard time on pve and getting jewels cause he never kill things in a pt (he dont have reach). but this is the same for warriors and imo this is a choice. personally, i would play mage to farm and swap into pala later (PVE wise).

Now my biggest point whem i say things here about balance and you say:

increasing hunter dmg to balance PVP will sure make him even better at PVE, but imo PVP is more important to balane and then you work something in the PVE so, i would do whatever is need to balance PVP and if hunter become broken in PVE (that is pretty possible), i would put a code on all mobs to receive reduced dmg from hunters.

is a better solution imo

Most ideas seem reasonable. Two things:

  • hunter’s ritual: the principle behind the change is sound, but it will have undesirable side effects. Taking away aoe will discourage strong hunters from grouping with others (especially with wizards). This will have largest effect on high RB player interaction with newer players.
  • When considering balance, keep in mind the play field. No amount of balance will affect PvE for high RB players. So I suggest we are really discussing PvP and possibly DS. I would personally like to see content that challenges current builds before any serious rebalancing occurs. Honestly, is there any amount of rebalancing that will make Paladin useful in the existing environment outside of DS? There is talk of glass cannons but no content that makes this true.
  • game encourage you to play in pt, you get more exp when you are in group. hunter had the bigger move speed before when classes had passive skills and people made pt anyway. also, you can notice from older players that any new player that come and ask nicely will be accepted in pt.
  • about balance and challange current builds, there is pretty much only 3 build people use:
    1 - exp build - most used by high rb/older players
    2- str/int build - most used by newer players. every stat mod = 1 RB. newer players with that build can pve and pvp well
    3- dodge tank build - this is the build everyone do to survive in pvp and then it will be who get luck to hit first or who use burn/bleed first…

the main problem is that the build 3 is what everyone aim eventually and is a terrible pvp where no one hit and then by luck someone kill the other. Or in case of mages and warrior, usually the one with bigger dmg kill the other with burn/bleed

to leave PvP iqual for everyone first and foremost they should have Skil from far and near, so you don’t have to be taking advantage of either from Skil by far to quarrel and paladin